You're splitting hairs re: occultism. Showing off your vocabulary is not debate. But that's OK. I think the thing that's worth pointing out here is that all sex is energy exchange, and all human interactions are 'majick'. Your nomenclature, while pretentious, is something I am familiar with as a lapsed pagan, but you're making us want to switch the channel with the attitude that comes along with it. Maybe you think it's 'creative', but it's a yawn. Turn it down a notch and actually communicate with the plebs a bit. It's a *discussion* board, after all, not a one-man wankfest.

Doesn't sound odd to me!

Zombie, you and I are probably somewhat out of the loop here because we haven't read The Ethical Slut, which seems to have become San Francisco's new Bible.

Part of me wants to read it just so I can have a better understanding of where all these polyamorous people are coming from. But then on the other hand, it seems so...trendy....like a Dr. Pepper commercial: "I'm a poly, he's a poly, she's a poly, we're a poly, wouldn't you like to be a poly too? Be a poly...Beeeeeeee polyamorous..."

uhhhhm... i don't think i'm on a cold hunt.... i really don't think i'm on any sort of hunt for that matter, except for maybe the hunt for the ultimate lip gloss... Anyhow what i think most people overlook about polyamoury is the fact that there is no set rules that come along with it. It doesn't mean that your relationships have no boundaries, it means that those boundaries are set by what the people involved determine acceptable.

i don't think it's fair to enter a relationship assuming it's going to be monogamous or polyamourous, as such things have to be determined through dialouging.

for me it's not about variety or the thrill of the chase, I would feel like i am handing over ownership of myself and my body to someone if i were to get involved in a mono type situation, and said thoughts don't mesh with my outlook on love/life.

being mono doesn't make a relationship any more stable or deeper then a poly one.

Well, here in NYC it's queer friendly in the goth scene (and way cool to be bi) but not everyone is exactly "out". So it's tricky, cuz nothing is what it seems, and lots of gossip flies around.
Most of the guys I hooked up with were complete surprises, or were set up by pals...("Fennis, my friend Tommy thinks you're cute......do you like him?")

I remember a goth camping trip up in the mountains that included me & a cute boy skinny dipping in the lake, a private hike, and then a J/O, 69 session on a rock overlooking the countryside.

Ok well i am bi and even though im starting to hate to define myself by goth lately i am for all intensive purposes a goth dude. I went to goth club here local and i found it very odd. Santa Cruz is where i live right now. I actually liked the lack of cruising that goes on at alt goth clubs and it was the main reaons aside from the music i would go but this one here was a new experience for me. There was alot of hetro cruising which i found strange. They never used to do that in goth bars. I mean you might meet and like each other but it wasnt until later at someones house the cruising began. At the club it was i don't know, not important.
I think the sad thing Fennis is that in actuality 20 years from now you actually don't feel much of anything for those old lovers.Maybe some fond laughs and giggles and a tear or two but Unless you have stayed close over the years no matter how hard you or they try to keep it fresh in thier minds people just forget and move on. It inevitable. Survival i guess.
In the goth room an answer like that im sure wont win me any brownie points but come on we all dont love dark things that go bump in the night cuz we avoid drama, Gothic is nothing if not Dramatic:)The clothes to the lights and music and shadows is all very Dramatic. It give a elevated sense of atmosphere to your life and events and its fucking fun damn it. heheehe but more often than not things end quietly and with little charge to them. Just a muddled confusion that you eventually figure out is ok and come to live with or adjust to.

Now im gonna get lectured about how goth is not clothes or lights or shadows or music but something else im not cool enough or in touch enough with myself to know about im sure but thats ok. I mean no disrespect by my comments. I've been a dark horror obsessed poety writting vampire obsessed kid since i was 6 so i am not putting it down, i love it.

By the way at this local goth club i went to here i was the only dude wearing eyeliner. Does that seem odd to anyone else but me or have i just not been to a goth club in to long and for some reason that peter murphy look is gone?

HA YOu disparage my name???? I AM a diety! I don't have a big ego im just waiting for everyone else to realize im god its perfectly normal LOL

Hehe i know what yer saying Simon and i agree that that kind of thin king does remain common in the goth clubs but its also like i think you said in other clubs too. I never found a more egotistical bunch of guys than when i tried aa when i in my early 20s. that was very bad and very judgemental but it can happen anywhere.

I personaly like magic and pagan ritual and some beliefs and yes thats how im gonna spell magic hehe. I think the the pretention comes in when its a bunch of kids who feel powerless and use it to try to elevate thier own control issues and insecurity. Then you get a mess that does not work nor does it last long.

One last thing too Drama is goth almost. Where else are you gonna find a more dramatic set of people. Now im not saying this is bad. I find the ability to imagine is what draws us together the most. Its not true for every goth but i think most strive to be or are very creative people. There is aagain the shallow self assured ones who are in it for the rush and i think thats fine too. Let then stand alone and be worshiped if they like. Nothing wrong with a bit of worship i say hehehe.

all in all i think these problems were talking about stretch across all borders and groups just depends on who ya decide your gonna invest in. thats all i gotta say for now

fennis, i'm pretty curisou about your age and the age of those you hang out with, and for one specific reason: there seems to be/has been, at least in the s.f. goth community, a big difference between us "older" folk who remember punk & goth from the first time 'round and the younger kindergoth set (who think "disintegration" was the cure's first album, etc.). this difference is partly in dress, partly in attitude within the "scene", partly in attitude towards those not in the scene.

for example, many of us older folk simply don't dress up the way we used to. we go to clubs to listen to the music and socialize, and we know everybody working security, dj-ing, bartending, etc., at these places. the younger set... wow! the glares they give you for not being in full face, full velvet, full anything, a very "who the hell are you and why are you in my club?" attitude. also, they are often the ones who complain about the way the "mainstream" treats/portrays them, but are just as likely (moreso, even) to judge, denigrate, and discriminate based on appearance.

i realize that some of that attitude is part of the self-discovery process that we all go through, especially those of us with more "alternative" natures. (does that word even mean anything anymore?) and there are some of us older folk who haven't gotten past this, either.

one thing to note in your posts: you say nice things about your friends. well, duh, they're your friends. what about all those others you simply can't stand?

anyway, the goth scene is as fun, fucked-up, wonderful, boring as any other scene. a lot less gay, especially in sf where gay men have so many options. why go someplace where most of the guys give off ambiguous signals when you can go someplace that filled with horny out gay men? and as for the vapid atmosphere at most gay bars, that's what sex clubs are for: all the nookie with none of the bullshit small-talk.

jm2c

-s-

>>I'm tired of hearing the buzzwords like "true will" "psychick" this or "psychick" that. I see a lot of pretention in it. Granted, I can understand the initial fascination, but it quickly devolves into this attitude of "I'm into Occultism so I'm really deep and interesting...but you, you're just shallow and superficial."<<
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yeah, i see this happening anytime someone becomes overtly "psychick". I've also noticed this when people talk about their "sprituality" on any level. it takes a pretty good bedside manner with an extra dose of consciousness to be able to have a strong self-empowering belief system without sounding pretentious. unfortunately most people can't pull it off. generally, people should be a lot LESS TALK and a lot MORE ACTION.

example: a while ago i dated a guy who was really into pleadian ancestry, ancient geometry, etc., and at first i was totally reading all of his books and asking him a million questions. generally speaking, i am a bit more objective about this stuff, kind of like a scientist/anthropologist, and when i showed him how some of my more free-spirited-raver-freak-friends actually LIVED many of the ideals he was always preaching about, it's like he couldn't take in the information and he just short circuited, snubbed them all, and buried himself back into his bibles and texts.

BUT...on the flip side, there were a few rare moments where i did experience some extreme other-worldly stuff with this guy that blew my mind...stuff that i will always, always remember. he was definitely tapped into some major shit. and in each one of those cases, there was NO TALKING. i just observed/experienced and asked him about it later.

i think when you put other-dimensional stuff into words, it loses all of it's power.