I don't think either one of used the word "poser", or was trying the "I'm more goth than you are" argument.... I simply think it's bad filmmaking.... definitely not worth arguing about.

I'm not goth, anyway, and although I love early post-punk, 80s gothic rock and 4AD style ethereal stuff, I would never promote myself as such.... I just love good music.

I think Stevie was cool as shit in her early days, especially first two solo albums, I daresay she'll never end up on a goth comp for purely musical reasons.....

Firstly, before you read this post that I'm about to write, I am not trying to incite a flamewar here. Nor am I trying to act "gother than thou". It's clear that you have at least a general idea of what you're talking about, but let's take it back a few steps, shall we.

<i>You probably don't know many goths who are into Stevie Nicks because you don't know any goths over the age of 35. </i>
Firstly, it's a really horrible idea to assume anything about me, young as I may be, I can accurately state that at the very least, 50% of the people I associate with on a day to day basis are over 35, "goth status" not withstanding. I still get laughed at for loving Stevie Nicks by my "over 35 goth friends", which mostly stems from my mother's music taste that I grew up on. While she didn't particularly like Nick's solo stuff, she was a heavy Fleetwood Mac fan, along with Black Sabbath, Pink Floyd, and The Doors also topping that list. Growing up with Fleetwood Mac eventually was the seed that grew to me to search out Nicks' solo stuff when i was getting heavily into music. I reiterate, I have met exactly one person who is into the whole goth thing that loves Stevie, and she wasn't goth when I met her initially.

<i>This movie didn't create a new obsession with Stevie Nicks, I don't know where that assertion came from. And if you paid attention to the movie, only Gypsy was into Stevie Nicks, Clive wasn't.</i>
In my area, believe it or not, it did. i cannot tell you how many people have come up to me since they've seen the movie and asked me to burn Nicks CDs for them. Now, suddenly, the idea for my band to cover "Rooms on Fire" is cool, whereas beforehand, people either looked confused or, as I said, laughed (they also laugh at my assertion that Bonnie Tyler's "Total Eclipse of the Heart" is just BEGGING to be done as a Nick Cave-style goth epic, but that's another rant.). And the movie did portray the goth scene to love Nicks - hence the idea of a "Night of a Thousand Stevies". While I hear that the night is an actual event, I can probably guarantee that there aren't droves of goths lining up at the door, either.

<i>I don't drink and didn't when I was a goth teenager. Not all goths drink absinthe (or alcohol in general) just like some goths like Stevie Nicks.</i>
I'm not sure where this comment really came from, but I think that you're under the impression that I'm generalizing Goths as drunks. While some don't drink, I grant you, goth <i>did</i> stem from the punk scene after all ;-)

<i>I don't think the subplots were that typical or even weak, which Dani even admits after saying that the subplots are typical.</i>
Well, falling in love with a married Amish man isn't typical, no, but it's still strange. And I never said they weren't weak. They were horribly weak. Making an entire movie about teen angst is pretty weak, never mind unnecessary.

<i>Not only was Clive different because he was gay</i>
Different from whom, exactly? Didn't you say you were part of the original goth scene? Suffice to say, a scene that not only accept but also, to a certain degree, encourages men in makeup, skirts, and other forms of androgyny is also pretty accepting of homosexuals. Not only that, but any man who participates in the act of makeup, skirts, and other forms of androgyny is at least comfortable with elements of drag (let's call a horse a horse here) - if not bisexual.

<i>Having a first sexual encounter with a frat boy at a rest stop was more about his alienation than it was about him being goth and getting a frat boy drunk to have sex with him. And in regards to that, the frat boy was obviously a repressed homo, he didn't need to get drunk to get it on with Clive. Or maybe it wasn't that obvious if you didn't pick up on that. His rejection and taunting of Clive was supposed to show how gay people are pressured by "normal" society, and his icy glare at Clive as their bus drove away was on the surface hatred for Clive because Clive was different ("goth") but underneath it was his own self-loathing. </i>
I cannot help but think that you're taking an approach that is entirely too psychological to the whole thing.

<i>Back then I never wanted to get it on with a jock, I do not fantasize about getting it on with a jock now, and I probably never will want to get it on with a jock. I think being attracted to frat boys is more un-goth than liking Stevie Nicks or being fat or crying every 15 seconds.</i>
I have to say that the entire idea of being friends with and associating only with people that are just like you is completely lost on me. believe me, if all of the people I knew were goth, I'd be quite a bored person. The feeling that everyone and everything you surround yourself with must be "goth" is simply ludicrous to me, call me naive.

<i>Besides, goths are usually melancholy.</i>
I'm sorry, but we'll have to agree to disagree there.

<i>back in highschool dressing the part was an outward expression of us being emotionally repressed. We wore black on the outside because black was how we felt on the inside. I'm not sure too many of the people in the "scene" back then had truly happy and fulfilling teenage years.</i>
Personally, I think that using "depression" as an excuse to be a goth is a pretty piss-poor reason to be a goth. And wearing black because "that's how you feel inside" reminds me a little too much to be comfortable with of teenagers who cut themselves all over their Korn records. I mean, let's be serious. Or perhaps people took themselves too seriously. You got one point correct, I wasn't there, but I'm pretty sure that's not how it went.
And let's be realistic here, <i>no one</i> had good teen aged years. If you did, there's something wrong with you.

<i>Besides, it's not like saying goths are melancholy is a big surprise to anyone.</i>
No, you're right, but that doesn't mean that a movie that's supposedly made by people who are oh-so-versed in the goth scene should perpetuate such stereotypes, and it doesn't mean I should like it.

<i>I know you might be upset that it's not an accurate portrayal of what being goth is all about, but it's nowhere near as upsetting as say seeing Siouxsie on Club MTV.</i>
Been there. Not only was "Peek-a-Boo" on MTV, but "Face to Face" was in the Batman soundtrack and Bauhaus has now opened for NIN. The mainstream access of goth isn't what's upsetting, it's the fact that so much of it <i>is</i> so accessable and people still have no idea what it is, or have horribly warped versions of it. That's the upsetting part.

<i>Try telling the Cure wasn't goth to people back in the '80s..... I listen(ed) to all the goth staples but I also love(d) Bananarama, did that make me less of a goth?</i>
Hey, as I've gone on and on about, I love Stevie Nicks - I also love Black Sabbath, most 70s rock, psychadelia, most 80s pop, Madonna, AFI, Concrete Blonde, and a slew of other non-goth music. It doesn't make anyone less of a "goth". And it doesn't necessarily mean anything. All it means to me is that I like, and regularly listen to music that I happen to enjoy and appreciate countless other artists for varied reasons, even if their music isn't something I personally have a taste for. The Cure had moments of severe melancholy, and I'll be the first to admit that "Pornography" was an almost comically goth album, but I cannot accept that The Cure were, from a musical standpoint, a goth band at most points of their career. Sure Goths love them, but this brings me back to the point that needing everything that you like or associate yourself with to be goth is really stupid and limiting, any way you look at it. Personally, i think that people needing everything they enjoy to be "goth" is what ruined the goth scene over the past ten years. Just because some Goths have a taste for EBM (or anything else, for that matter) doesn't make it goth. Point blank.